Hybriden Rotbrustsamenknacker

Ich bin auf der Suche nach Rotbrustsamenknacker.
Meine Frage weiß jemand von Mischlingen zwischen den beiden im Handel befindlichen Unterarten(S.h. haematina & S.h.pustulata) ?
Im Gegensatz zu meinen reinen Rotbrustsamenknackerpaaren denken mein "Mischpaare" nich einmal daran sich zu vermehren.

auch ein altes thema,

also ich habe zur zeit ein einzelnes paar, ohne das die auch nur anschein für eien brut machen. laut meiner literatur sind es tiere der nominatform.

über hybriden ist mir bislang nichts bekannt, ehrlich gesagt beschäftige ich mich auch nicht wirklich gerne mit diesm thema auch wen es nur die unterarten betrifft.


kannst du vielleicht anregungen zur zucht geben?

gerhard schrieb:

Im Gegensatz zu meinen reinen Rotbrustsamenknackerpaaren denken mein "Mischpaare" nich einmal daran sich zu vermehren.

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Hello Gerhard,

If I have deciphered your German well, you said :
“ Contrary to my pure pairs of Western bluebills, my mixed pairs that is my pairs consisting of a partner from each subspecies. do not show any signs of nesting. “

Is this correct ?

I found a French website with excellent photos at
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/piafs/becbleu.htm

The writer said :
It was 4 years before the pair [ of Western Bluebills ] decided to nest. These very savage birds need time to feel sufficiently secure in their environment before they will raise their young.

The book by Clement et al, also says that these birds are very elusive in the forest and very easily missed.

So is it possible that you may need to place them on their own in their own breeding flight in a quieter part of the house rather than with other species in your living rooom as I assume you are doing at the moment ?

How long was it before your pure pairs of Western Bluebills started to nest ?

Do you happen to know whether the subspecies of other species like Lagonosticta rubricata or the subspecies of L. senegala, also take LONGER to start nesting, if the partners come from different subspecies ?

If so, then there may be subspeciation factors that may be causing this delay in nesting behaviour.

By the way, there is a third subspecies of Western Bluebill according to the Clement book. It is Spermophaga haematina togoensis.

William

Hello William,

nearly correct, I breed both subspecies of Spermophaga hamatina quite well. My problem is to breed hybrids of Sp. h. haematina with Sp. h. pustulata. These two subspecies differ dramatically in their behaviour as well as in their song types. So I am wondering wether Sp.h.togoensis is really a hybrid of Sp.h.haematina and Sp.h.pustulata as it is supposed to be or not. I am not quite sure how closely related pustulata is to haematina, pustulata shows many signs of the Sp.ruficapilla (Red-headed Blue-bill).

By the way both subspecies can get quite tame if the aviary or the cages (not smaller then 1,6x0,6x0,6) are densely structured. Usually the begin to build nest within their first year in captivity but they tend to feed to much on proteins (Eggfood, mealworms,…) if they have unlimited access to. This preference for proteins seam to be the only problem at least what I found so fare.

Regards Gerhard

Hallo Rene',

eigentlich schreiten Samenknacker recht schnell zur Brut der Bruttrieb läßt sich recht gut über die Fütterung steuern (Lebendfutter). Sie lieben dichte Vegetation dort legen sie in aller Regel auch ihr Nest an. Bewährt hat sich eine Beleuchtung die auch schattige Bereiche in der Voliere/Käfig beläßt (z.B. die Beleuchtung asymmetrisch im Käfig anbringen).
Meine Samenknacker bevorzugen übrigens kleine Saaten wie Mohair- Mannahirse oder Knaulgrassamen.
Die Hybridenzucht will immer noch nicht gelingen aber da werde ich wohl aufgeben müssen da ich erst mal wegen eines Auslandsaufenthalts die Vogelhaltung still legen muß.

Gruß Gerhard und viel Glück mit den Biestern

hallo,

also lebendfutter ect. steht mehr als genug zur verfügung, da sie zusammen mit graunackenschwärzlingen (jungtiere dieses jahres) zusammen sind.

naja mal abwarten und "tee trinken"

Dann legen die auch bald los, es sei denn du hast ein Mischpaar :-) die machen wie gesagt bei mir auch nichts. In diesem Jahr waren viele Pustulata Männer im Umlauf die zusammen mit Nominatform Weibchen bei Importeuren als Paar verkauft wurden.

Gruß Gerhard

Hallo Gerhard,
wann kommt endlich der zweite Band raus?
Gruß Reiner

gerhard schrieb:

Nearly correct, I breed both subspecies of Spermophaga hamatina quite well.

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Well done Gerhard

gerhard schrieb:

My problem is to breed hybrids of Sp. h. haematina with Sp. h. pustulata. These two subspecies differ dramatically in their behaviour

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Can you explain how they differ dramatically in their behaviour please ? with regard, courtship behaviour in particular. After all this is the most critical.

gerhard schrieb:

So I am wondering wether Sp.h.togoensis is really a hybrid of Sp.h.haematina and Sp.h.pustulata as it is supposed to be or not.

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I see what you mean now. it is true Clement et al do hint that it is a hybrid because the togoensis birds have intermediate colouring.

gerhard schrieb:

I am not quite sure how closely related pustulata is to haematina, pustulata shows many signs of the Sp.ruficapilla (Red-headed Blue-bill).

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You can determine this by DNA fingerprintiing. All you need is a few flight feathers from each bird. As far as I know, the more the DNA fingerprints are similar to each other, the more likely INFERTILITY will result if mating occurs.
Have you had fertile eggs at all from your mixed pairs ?

gerhard schrieb:

Usually they begin to build the nest within their first year in captivity but they tend to feed too much on proteins (Eggfood, mealworms,…) if they have unlimited access to it. This preference for protein seems to be the only problem at least what I found so far.

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Can you explain why feeding too much on protein is a problem ?
If by this you mean that the male ends up throwing the young out of the nest a few days after they have hatched, all you do is remove the male. This is what I do with my Golden Song Sparrow pair.
Sudan Golden Sparrows Braunrückengoldsperling Passer luteus

These birds also eat a lot of protein. If you do not have other species breeding with them, then you could try stopping the animal protein altogether and feed them germinating seed after the young are 5 days old.

The type of protein you give also is important. For example, an Australian finch breeder told me that since he has started feeding loads of bush fly larvae which are the same size as the Blowfly larvae, his Golden Song Sparrows and other finch species are producing MORE YOUNG PER YEAR.
Flies also seem to have something in them which is important prior to egg laying.
If I understood Rene correctly, he told me that his Lagonosticta rara forbesi ate ant pupae, buffalo worms and blowfly larvae one week before eggs were laid and after the young firefinches fledged, they completely stopped eating the blowfly larvae but continued with the ant pupae and buffalo worms.

William
P.S. Can you tell me what Reiner meant by wann kommt endlich der zweite Band raus? Cannot figure it out Thanks.

Seit wann ist ein Unterart verpaarung ein Mischling?

Since when is a pairing of subspecies leading to hybrid offspring?

Hallo Reiner,

so wie die Dinge stehen dürften wir mit der Überarbeitung bis Herbst fertig sein. Danach gehen die Manuskripte noch ein paar mal hin und her wegen Korrekturen Bildandrucke etc. ... Frühjahr nächstes Jahr ist ein realistisches Datum denke ich.

Gruß Gerhard

Hallo Hans,

genau darum geht es die Unterart togoensis ist nicht gesichert es könnte sich bei ihr um Hybriden zwischen haematina und pustulata handeln.
Die Bestimmung von Mischlingen auf Unterartniveau ist leider auch auf DNA Basis alles andere als einfach dafür ist die genetische Grundausstattung der beiden Elternpopulationen zu ähnlich.
Aber wenn sich die Biester in Gefangenschaft nicht verpaaren lassen spricht das bei togoensis gegen die Hybriden.

Gruß Gerhard

Hi William,

They have different song types build different nests show differences in neophobia , and most of all they don’t build mixed pairs

I never had a mixed pair which had fertile eggs. Fingerprinting seams not that easy because all the spermophaga species are closely related one certainly have to work with micro-satellites. I expect that hybrids will be fertile even if different species of spemophaga are involved .

Sp.haematina would eat nearly only insects if they have unlimited access to. 10 days after hatching I reduce the amount of protein and 5 days after fledging I reduce it even more. Especially the fledglings avoid to feed on seeds even if they are half ripe or germinated so one have to force them to feed on healthy food. Very similar to the way you breed the Golden Song Sparrow.

Reiner is talking about the second volume of the old Immelmann et al. books called Prachtfinken. Renate van den Elzen and I are currently revising the second volume (Africa) of the books (Many things have changed since 1967 so it is quite a lot of work, and even more species have occurred in captivity since these days so one have to write whole chapters completely new). The first revised volume is already published see picture.

Sorry it is german

Regards Gerhard

By the way.... tomorrow a friend will take my last breeding pairs of orange cheeks they raised 14 Juveniles this year. They are wild caught and did not raise a single fledgling the first year in captivity but all changed the second year. All together in five years captivity the raised 43 fledglings and all but 2 of them survived up to now.

Regards Gerhard

Hi Gerhard,

I was very glad to read your answer.

gerhard schrieb:

They have different song types, build different nests, show differences in neophobia , and most of all they don’t build mixed pairs

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I do not quite understand what you mean by “ and most of all they don’t build mixed pairs “

gerhard schrieb:

I never had a mixed pair which had fertile eggs.

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But did you have ANY eggs at all ? Was ANY nest built ?
Have you tried haematina cock x pustulata hen and pustulata cock with haematina hen ?

gerhard schrieb:

Fingerprinting seems not that easy because all the spermophaga species are closely related one certainly has to work with micro-satellites.

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I have found an American website that deals with this work.

http://www.geneseek.com/link.sp?page=discovery-services

Do you do microsatellite scans in Germany or do you send your samples to America ? I would be very interested in a German website that deals with this, if you know of any.

gerhard schrieb:

I expect that hybrids will be fertile even if different species of spemophaga are involved .

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I am curious. Do you happen to know whether hybrids from pairings of different Lagonosticta species are fertile ? Do you also think these will be fertile ?

gerhard schrieb:

Sp.haematina would eat nearly only insects if they have unlimited access to them.

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I have found that I am saving loads of money in livefood by having trained all my wild caught African finches to eat finely grated hard boiled egg. I only give them insects buried in chicken feed in a large tray during the night.

gerhard schrieb:

Especially the fledglings avoid to feed on seeds even if they are half ripe or germinated so one has to force them to feed on healthy food.

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Yes, I trained my African finches to eat hard boiled egg by removing their seed for two hours a day for about 4 weeks. But I found that Schlegel twinspots started getting ill when I increased this to three hours a day. I also stopped feeding insects during this time. All species started to eat hard boiled egg except the yellow winged pytilias. They still don’t which I find quite amazing.

gerhard schrieb:

By the way.... tomorrow a friend will take my last breeding pairs of orange cheeks. They raised 14 juveniles this year. They are wild caught and did not raise a single fledgling the first year in captivity but all that changed the second year.

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Great. An American and a Portuguese told me that they had to wait about two years before their bluecaps and their orange cheeks stopped throwing their young out. But unlike you, they never fed their birds ant pupae.

Best wishes for both Immelmann volumes that you and Renate have updated. Well done.

William