Two long years ?

Diskutiere Two long years ? im Forum Afrikanische Prachtfinken im Bereich Prachtfinken - Hello everyone, I am feeding my African finches hard boiled egg finely cut fresh, germinating seed, fresh lettuce and cucumber, every 4 hours...
Chris,

> In the current issue there is an article about Uraeginthus, written by Horst Bielfeld, a famous german breeder and author. He reports, that privacy and tons of different insect food is important to avoid fledglings being tossed out of the nest. That sounds to me, that feeding many different insects is the key, because he also reports, that not all couples need that much privacy, some couples don't mind nest control.

I quite agree. Privacy and different insects is one way of doing it. But as I explained to Henrik, there is evidence provided by Randy Taylor that if the Bluecaps are conditioned to eating hard boiled egg and chick crumbs and geminated seed they will parent rear without insects at all.
There is also evidence provided by Debbie Barbieri that if the Bluecaps have been hand reared by humans, they will parent rear their young without any privacy whatsoever.

It all boils down to what the birds have been conditioned to in their past.

William
 
Hi William!


William Astor schrieb:
It all boils down to what the birds have been conditioned to in their past.

Well, then it seems, you only have to find out, how long it takes to condition them to different food.
 
Hello William,

William Astor schrieb:
In English you say grated carrot not rasped carrot.

William Astor schrieb:
fishing tackle shop is the word.

many thanks for the correction of my mistakes. I´m always eager to learn something new (e.g. the English expressions for the different plants...).
What do you mean with the term "wheat grass" - I think it´s not the grass of the cultivated grain "wheat", is it? Perhaps you mean a form of wild grass (Latin name: Agropyron)?


Wiiliam Astor schrieb:
By the way, can you please find out for me the Latin and if you are lucky, the English name of small granular, three-colored “ Mohairhirse “ please ?

"Mohairhirse" is a subspecies of Setaria italica, I think you call it in English "foxtail millet", which exists in many different subspecies.
I´ve got a very interesting link for you:

www.fao.org/inpho/compend/text/ch18...lr.bwl.de/la/lap/pflqual/nutzpfl/kornbesh.htm

Wiiliam Astor schrieb:
Instead of freezing it, isn’t it possible to simply hang it up to dry like spray millet and then place it in a box with ventilation in a cold dry room.

The advantage of half-ripe millet seed is that it contains more vitamins and enzymes than the ripe one. And it has got a higher degree of moisture which is essential for the acceptance as rearing food for my birds. That´s the reason why you should freeze half-ripe food...

William Astor schrieb:
Do the finches like rehydrated ant pupae as much as frozen ant pupae ? Can you tell me how much they are per 100 grams, both dry and frozen ?

I never tried frozen ant pupae. But I think (and many breeders report this) that the finches like the frozen pupae more than the rehydrated. Yesterday I asked a friend to gather some fresh ones because they have many ant heaps in their garden. I´m eager to see the reaction of my birds.

Steffi
 
Christian schrieb:
Hi William!
Well, then it seems, you only have to find out, how long it takes to condition them to different food.

That’s right :)

Combining the information that we have before us, I think the quickest way to get the Bluecaps [ and other difficult African finch species] to parent rear in an environment where hard boiled egg and human predators are a common feature of the environment is to FIRST foster the eggs under Bengalese finches and handle the hatchlings EVERY DAY WHILE THEY ARE IN THE BENGALESE NEST in order to get the Bluecap hatchlings to be thoroughly conditioned to humans and even talk to them. You of course feed the Bengalese that foster them nothing but hard boiled egg, geminating seed and greenfood. Absolutely no insects.
The Bluecaps that fledge then will be not only used to eating just hard boiled egg for their source of animal protein BUT and equally importantly will be thoroughly conditioned to humans.

This I think will be the quickest way to get them to successfully parent rear their young even in our living rooms because they would be fully conditioned to their environment.

William
 
Munia maja schrieb:
Hello William,

many thanks for the correction of my mistakes. I´m always eager to learn something new (e.g. the English expressions for the different plants...).
What do you mean with the term "wheat grass"

You should say " What do you mean by the term...."
All wheat grass is, is wheat sown in compost. You could I think use piglet rooting earth. Let the wheat grow about 10 cms and put the tray containing the wheat in the birdroom. Make sure that the wheat grass and compost is not wet when you feed the birds.

Munia maja schrieb:

Thank you very much for the link you gave me. It is excellent.

Munia maja schrieb:
The advantage of half-ripe millet seed is that it contains more vitamins and enzymes than the ripe one. And it has got a higher degree of moisture which is essential for the acceptance as rearing food for my birds. That´s the reason why you should freeze half-ripe food...

But germinating seed contains more vitamins and enzymes than dry seed. So what is the difference between the half ripe millet and germinating seed ? There may not be that much difference. Do you happen to know which of the two your finches prefer ?

William
 
Hello William,


William Astor schrieb:
All wheat grass is, is wheat sown in compost.


Now I understand what you mean BY (!) the expression "wheat grass", I think the birds would also like the piglet rooting earth...



William Astor schrieb:
So what is the difference between the half ripe millet and germinating seed ? There may not be that much difference. Do you happen to know which of the two your finches prefer ?

Concerning the enzymes and vitamins I don´t think there is much difference between half ripe millet and germinating seed. But there is a great difference in acceptance - my finches definitely prefer the half ripe millet! I think it´s mainly the way of food intake because they like to climb the panicles (it´s their normal behaviour in nature) and sometimes they take the millet leaves to build their nests...

Steffi
 
Hi Steffi,

Concerning the enzymes and vitamins I don´t think there is much difference between half ripe millet and germinating seed. But there is a great difference in acceptance - my finches definitely prefer the half ripe millet! I think it´s mainly the way of food intake because they like to climb the panicles (it´s their normal behaviour in nature) and sometimes they take the millet leaves to build their nests...

Once again, what you say confirms what I have said about past conditioning.
What foods the birds PREFER will be determined by what they have been conditioned to in their past. And as you say, both half ripe millet and germinating seed are equally rich in enzymes and vitamins and simple sugars. Similarly both insects and hard boiled egg have roughly the same amount of complete protein.

The advantage of half-ripe millet seed is that it contains more vitamins and enzymes than the ripe one. And it has got a higher degree of moisture which is essential for the acceptance as rearing food for my birds. That´s the reason why you should freeze half-ripe food...

Spray millet is Setaria viride. It is commonly bought by birdkeepers in the UK in dry form. But incredibly it sprouts when you soak it. So I suppose if you not have space in your freezer, you could tie up Setaria italica in bundles and hang them to dry in an unheated room and then sprout them for your birds later in the year.

William
 
Earlier, I wrote...
This I think will be the quickest way to get them to successfully parent rear their young even in our living rooms because they would then be fully conditioned to their environment.

One very good reason why few people breed African finches is because of the need to buy extremely expensive livefood [ My Orlux catalogue shows that 100 grams of ant pupae costs almost 10 Euros !] and privacy is another serious problem.

The evidence that I have gathered from Randy Taylor and Debbie Barbieri [ see previous posts ] shows that using Bengalese to condition the young of the wild caught African finch species is a SHORTCUT to having those same African species parent rear their own young WITHOUT any livefood or privacy whatsoever.

Note that hard boiled egg has roughly the same amount of animal complete protein as insects. For example :
Hard boiled egg contains 49.57 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.
Mealworms contain 50.25 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.
Fly larvae contain 49.45 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.

This means that hard boiled egg is equivalent to supplying the real thing that the African finches feed their young in the wild. And one hard boiled egg costs me a TENTH of a Euro :)

Using Bengalese to condition the young Africans to hard boiled egg and human predators MAKES EXCELLENT SENSE although it appears to be bad avicultural practice at first.
The rewards could be immense.
No more expensive ant eggs will be needed :)
No more nestlings will be thrown out of the nest.
And think of the pleasure of having all those lovely bluecaps along with other African species parent rearing in a living room aviary with the television switched on....!!!
It is incredible but I am convinced it is possible by using Bengalese.

This could revolutionize the statistics of African finch species that are bred each year because more and more people will be able TO AFFORD TO BREED THEM and have them breed in their living room or kitchen instead of a secluded birdroom out in the garden.

I have included this information in my article entitled “ Conditioning 2 Bengalese cocks to incubate and foster rear on Cue “ which is at :

http://astorwilliam.tripod.com/Fostering/bengalese.htm

I contacted DagmarH who is in charge of the layout of the online PIROL magazine about having this valuable information published in this online magazine. He told me that he would be very interested. But the problem is having it translated into German.

So anyone out there who is German speaking who is interested in translating the above article please email me.

Thank you.

William

Note. You can access PIROL by clicking on INFORMATIONEN and MAGAZIN at the top.
 
Hello William,

I agree with your statement that birds will prefer that food to what they´ve been conditioned in their youth. But that´s not important for me because I want to give my birds food that is as natural as possible. And I think hard boiled egg is no natural source of proteins for the birds we are talking of. Not even for Bengalese or other easy-breeding species like Zebrafinches. As for me boiled eggs or food depending mainly on eggs can only complete the offer of different natural protein sources even when they are expensive. For many birds it´s not only important to get any kind of protein food, they need to gather (moving) live food.

I keep my birds because I like their very interesting behaviour. When they succeed in rearing their offspring I´m very happy, but it´s not my main concern. It just shows me that I´m doing well (I hope so...?). That is why I wouldn´t use Bengalese just to have the success of breeding difficult species. They may be helpful to save nestlings when the parents can´t rear their own offspring (for any reason) and you want to save their lives. But not for more..

Despite my opinion about feeding eggs and using Bengalese I think you are wrong when you say:

Wiiliam Astor schrieb:
Note that hard boiled egg has roughly the same amount of animal complete protein as insects. For example :
Hard boiled egg contains 49.57 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.
Mealworms contain 50.25 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.
Fly larvae contain 49.45 grams of protein per 100 grams by dry weight.

This means that hard boiled egg is equivalent to supplying the real thing that the African finches feed their young in the wild.

and

William Astor schrieb:
And as you say, both half ripe millet and germinating seed are equally rich in enzymes and vitamins and simple sugars. Similarly both insects and hard boiled egg have roughly the same amount of complete protein.

It doesn´t only depend on the same amount of total protein! It also depends on the quality (that means the composition of amino acids) of the proteins. Now you may say, that everybody knows that egg-derived proteins are of a very high quality. That may be right concerning the nutrition of human beings. But do you know what sorts of amino acids are indispensable for the birds you´re trying to breed? Maybe eggs lack just one special amino acid...
For example: Many years ago when the animal food industry began to produce food for cats, they didn´t know that the amino acid "taurine" is essential just for cats, not for dogs, nor for any other domestic mammal. In those days cats who only were fed with tin food got seriously ill. They suffered from blindness, heart failure, etc. Maybe it´s the same problem feeding the African finches - the lack of one single amino acid...

Another point is the digestibility of the various protein sources. Over millions of years the digestive tract of the African finches´ nestlings has been adapted to insects as the main protein source... Are you able to change that properly within a few generations of birds? I don´t think so.
Even when you succeed rearing your bluecaps by feeding boiled eggs, do you know the consequences for their later physical condition?

Steffi
 
Hi Steffi!


Munia maja schrieb:
Even when you succeed rearing your bluecaps by feeding boiled eggs, do you know the consequences for their later physical condition?

That is a very interesting question, because I also can imagine, that the consequences might show up not until the second or third generation.
Don't you think so?
 
Munia maja schrieb:
Hello William,
I agree with your statement that birds will prefer that food to what they´ve been conditioned in their youth. But that´s not important for me because I want to give my birds food that is as natural as possible.

Hi Steffi,

My aim is to establish the African finches in aviculture by finding ways to increase the numbers that are bred. At the moment, far too few people are breeding far too few of the various African finch species. The reason why this is so is almost certainly because of the very expensive livefood that is needed to breed these finches. If the importation of African finches stops, these birds will die out in a few years time if we cannot think of ways to breed them in considerable numbers now. I have talked to Australian finch lovers and they are so sad that they cannot have the African finches that we enjoy now at the moment in our homes. Even the few African species that have managed to survive in Australian aviaries cost far too much for an ordinary Australian bird keeper to buy. For example, a pair of orange cheeks in Australia costs 855 Euros. Just think about that. It is the truth. This is the harsh reality we all face if we do not act now.


Munia maja schrieb:
And I think hard boiled egg is no natural source of proteins for the birds we are talking of. Not even for Bengalese or other easy-breeding species like Zebrafinches.

What is important here is whether hard boiled egg has the necessary amounts of complete protein, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals that are similar to those contained in insects. The information that I have shows that hard boiled egg does. The only note here is that boiling destroys vitamins so I would make vitamins available in powder form so that the birds can take as much as they need and no more. I provide Aviplus vitamin powder in this way which my African fiinches like.


Munia maja schrieb:
As for me boiled eggs or food depending mainly on eggs can only complete the offer of different natural protein sources even when they are expensive.

It has been proven by people who have hand reared African finches that insects are not vital in rearing them. Ron Myers of California has told me he has bred many Purple Grenadiers and Violet Ears on EXACT brand hand feeding formula which is made of ground corn, wheat, dried egg and soya protein and minerals and vitamins. No insects.


Munia maja schrieb:
For many birds it´s not only important to get any kind of protein food, they need to gather (moving) live food.

This behaviour is again related to what they have been conditioned to in their past.


Munia maja schrieb:
I keep my birds because I like their very interesting behaviour.

I agree that this is interesting behaviour but unless we find a way to get these finches to breed more easily in our homes we are going to lose them altogether and then your children will not be able to enjoy what you do now at all.


Munia maja schrieb:
It doesn´t only depend on the same amount of total protein! It also depends on the quality (that means the composition of amino acids) of the proteins. Now you may say, that everybody knows that egg-derived proteins are of a very high quality. That may be right concerning the nutrition of human beings. But do you know what sorts of amino acids are indispensable for the birds you´re trying to breed? Maybe eggs lack just one special amino acid...

Hard boiled egg is made of all 22 amino acids. If there is an amino acid that is needed in larger amounts by one particular finch species, then all it has to do is eat more egg. You must also bear in mind that there have been many finch species which have been fostered by Bengalese on eggfood and lived and bred young of their own. Hard boiled egg has been proved to be a very adequate food for all kinds of birds.


Munia maja schrieb:
Another point is the digestibility of the various protein sources. Over millions of years the digestive tract of the African finches´ nestlings has been adapted to insects as the main protein source... Are you able to change that properly within a few generations of birds ?

Over millions of years, the digestive tract of finches has adapted to digest plant and animal protein. If various finch species were not fully able to digest hard boiled egg which is an animal protein, then all the finch species which have been fostered by the Bengalese which reared them on eggfood would not have survived. Simple as that. What you say is not backed by the facts.


Munia maja schrieb:
Even when you succeed rearing your bluecaps by feeding boiled eggs, do you know the consequences for their later physical condition ?

As a matter of fact I do. Bluecaps which have been reared on hard boiled egg and germinating seed have come out in good physical form and bred their own young with far less fuss and very good results. An American lady called Connie Cuthbert in Pennsylvania has told me she fosters 75% of her Bluecaps and other Africans under Bengalese and has been doing so for the past 21 years. Americans now CANNOT import bluecaps anymore into their country because a new law forbids them to do so. I am pretty sure that if it were not for people like Connie, no one would have bluecaps in America today.

William
 
Hello William,

excuse me that my answer has taken a few days - in German it´s written within a few minutes, in English it takes much more time and that is what I didn´t have the last days...

William Astor schrieb:
My aim is to establish the African finches in aviculture by finding ways to increase the numbers that are bred. At the moment, far too few people are breeding far too few of the various African finch species. The reason why this is so is almost certainly because of the very expensive livefood that is needed to breed these finches.

I appreciate you worrying about the African finches future in aviculture.
But has it to be the easy going way, when it´s possibly the wrong one? Sometimes we have to make an effort to have success (not only in breeding birds...). And why shouldn´t it cost a little more? If somebody really wants to breed the African finches, he/she wouldn´t mind to make every effort (at least concerning myself: last year I drove more than 500 km just to get a single Chestnut-breasted Mannikin and I didn´t think of the costs or anything else). If somebody can´t afford keeping the difficult species, he/she should buy Zebrafinches or Bengalese... I know that sounds very heartless but it´s my opinion.
I also think that most of the breeders who are rearing their African finches by the help of Bengalese don´t think about the future of that species in their country, but want to earn money because the birds are expensive! And that´s not my way and it shouldn´t be that of a serious breeder.


William Astor schrieb:
What is important here is whether hard boiled egg has the necessary amounts of complete protein, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals that are similar to those contained in insects. The information that I have shows that hard boiled egg does... Hard boiled egg is made of all 22 amino acids. If there is an amino acid that is needed in larger amounts by one particular finch species, then all it has to do is eat more egg.


You mentioned the amino acids of eggs: at present scientists know more than 200 different amino acids. The 22 of the eggs are those which are sufficient for the nutrition of men. For example the afore-mentioned "taurine" (lacking in cats´food) is none of the 22... Do you know, which ones lack in the birds?
And eating more egg just to get enough of one special amino acid which is contained in a low quantity only would lead to renal failure...


William Astor schrieb:
Bluecaps which have been reared on hard boiled egg and germinating seed have come out in good physical form and bred their own young with far less fuss and very good results. An American lady called Connie Cuthbert in Pennsylvania has told me she fosters 75% of her Bluecaps and other Africans under Bengalese and has been doing so for the past 21 years.


It would be very interesting to compare the results of breeders like Connie Cuthbert with others who are rearing their birds with different sorts of live food. Not just the numbers of fledglings but the later results: body condition, success of breeding of the following generations, the average age at which the birds die, etc.
In many articles about using Bengalese as foster parents it´s written that the offspring very often is weak and in bad physical condition. And mostly they fail to rear their own young because they don´t know themselves as the African finches they are, but as Bengalese...
Oh by the way - where did you get your Blucaps? Maybe you just don´t succeed in rearing them because they were fed by Bengalese?

Steffi
 
Steffi schrieb:
I appreciate you worrying about the African finches future in aviculture.

Hello Steffi,

I am worried and everyone on this African Finch Forum should be worried as well.
My Australian colleagues have many times told me how they would kill for the African finch species that we have in Europe. That is the expressioin that they actually used. It simply goes to show how badly they yearn to breed these birds. But these birds are forbidden to them by their government.
We must learn from this. We must do everything in our power to establish these precious African finches in our homes before it is too late.

Steffi schrieb:
I also think that most of the breeders who are rearing their African finches by the help of Bengalese don´t think about the future of that species in their country, but want to earn money because the birds are expensive! And that´s not my way and it shouldn´t be that of a serious breeder.

Considering the immense daily efforts that successful breeders of African finches must put in order to breed these birds [ even using Bengalese ], the thought that these people are breeding the African finches “ to make money” simply does not make sense.
There must be far easier ways of making money believe me....

Using Bengalese has nothing to do with making money as I have explained in my previous posts. It has to do with CONDITIONING the African species to hard boiled egg and human predators. If we continue feeding Africans their ant pupae, very few people will be able to afford breeding them. And in this way the African finch species WILL DIE OUT if importation of these finches stops.

Once the young of the African finches are conditioned to hard boiled egg and human predators, anyone should be able to breed them in their own kitchen or living room. It sounds incredible but it all boils down to what the birds have been conditioned to in their past.

Steffi schrieb:
You mentioned the amino acids of eggs: at present scientists know more than 200 different amino acids. The 22 of the eggs are those which are sufficient for the nutrition of men. For example the afore-mentioned "taurine" (lacking in cats´food) is none of the 22... Do you know, which ones lack in the birds ?

I see your point. But I have PROOF that the amino acids contained in hard boiled egg and pinkies enable Paul De Nil in Belgium to breed the following African finch species ON A YEARLY BASIS and CONSISTENTLY so. You can contact this breeder on 00/32/15757266 if you want confirmation of this. You can also contact Eric Van Tenderloo who is a Belgian bird seller who deals with this breeder. His telephone number is 0032 34 81 66 97. You can also contact the Waxbill Finch Society in England who will confirm that their members bought birds from this man.

Wienerastrild === Orange-winged Pytilia === Pytilia afra
Buntastrild === Green-winged Pytilia === Pytilia melba
Grüner Tropfenastrild === Green-backed Twinspot === Mandingoa nitidula
Monteiroastrild === Brown Twinspot === Clytospiza monteiri
Perlastrild === Rosy Twinspot === Hypargos margaritatus
Tropfenastrild === Peters's Twinspot === Hypargos niveoguttatus
Dybowskiastrild === Dybowski's Twinspot=== Euschistospiza dybowskii

Senegalamarant === Red-billed Firefinch === Lagonosticta senegala
Larvenamarant === Masked Fire Finch === Lagonosticta larvata
Nonnenastrild=== Black-crowned Waxbill === Estrilda nonnula

Blauastrild === Blue-breasted Cordon bleu === Uraeginthus angolensis
Blaukopfschmetterlingsfink === Blue-capped Cordon bleu === Uraeginthus cyanocephalus
Granatastrild === Violet Eared Waxbill === Uraeginthus granatina
Veilchenastrild === Purple Grenadier === Uraeginthus ianthinogaster

Steffi schrieb:
In many articles about using Bengalese as foster parents it´s written
that the offspring very often is weak and in bad physical condition.

I have seen fostered closed rung bluecaps and they were in excellent condition. Indeed they looked far better than the wild caught ones that I saw in other stalls. If anything, using Bengalese will enable you to breed birds that are more disease resistant in a human environment and therefore should live longer. I have explained about this in my article at:

http://astorwilliam.tripod.com/Fostering/bengalese.htm

Steffi schrieb:
And mostly they fail to rear their own young because they don´t know themselves as the African finches they are, but as Bengalese...

Again, these articles simply are not correct in what they are saying. Fostered birds will have no problem breeding on their own. Look at Gouldians now. They were all fostered years ago. And now most of them parent rear at 2 years. Christine tells me that she has had fostered bluecaps rear their young many times. And Connie has been using fostered Bluecaps to rear their young for years. Randy Taylor himself told me that the bluecaps that parent bred young on hard boiled egg and baby chick pellets [ no insects ] were from one fostered hen and one wild caught cock.

Steffi schrieb:
Oh by the way - where did you get your Blucaps ?

My bluecaps are wild caught of course.

William
 
William Astor schrieb:
Someone told me that African finches will throw their young out of the nest in the first 2 years that they are breeding in your indoor flight [ voliere] but after the first 2 years, they start rearing the young to full adulthood with no problems.
Do you agree with this ?
Hi William, I'm late to answer you but I've just found this forum a few days ago.
My Orange-cheeked waxbills have never thrown out their nestlings. From my point of view, they are wonderful parents, who just need to be housed with not too many disturbing birds, so that they feel good enough to attempt to reproduce.
My Blue-headed Cordon-bleus have occasionally had dead nestlings, apparently because of pathogenic germs but not because of the food. They throw them out of the nest only when they are dead.
My birds are housed in mixed indoor aviaries (2 m x 2 m x 1 m) with several waxbill species and one softbill species in each. They get a house-made seed mix, universal food and small pellets, grit, fruit, nectar, half-ripe wild seeds (during summer), sprouted seeds (when it's not too warm) and a house-made egg food with crushed hard-boiled eggs, lots of frozen fly larvae and a few living mealworms. When I can, I also give them living buffalo worms and small waxmoth larvae and I breed drosophilae in small boxes inside the aviaries.
When a new bird is added to an aviary, it tries the same food as the others after seeing them eating eggfood and other things that are strange for a wild bird.
So I got many waxbill pairs to rear naturally their young the first year I had them (Orange-cheeked Waxbill, Black-cheeked Waxbill, Black-rumped Waxbill, Blue-headed Cordon-bleu, Angola Cordon-bleu, Goldbreast, Yellow-winged Pytilia, Red Avadavat, Grey-headed Silverbill...). Some other species needed more time to decide to breed (Crimson-rumped Waxbill, Purple Grenadier) but finally they did it. At the moment, the Green Twinspot pair that I bought in January 2004 have eggs. I keep my fingers crossed...
I understand that you'd rather not give live food to your birds, but for me it's out of question : when you breed softbills such as Yuhinas, you can't avoid giving live food. But it's not that terrible. ;)
 
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Thema: Two long years ?

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