Mariendistel-Samen

Mariendistel -Samen Lat.: Silybum marianum

Hello,
I have asked the following query in another forum but did not obtain the information I was after. Maybe someone on this forum can help. Can anyone find out for me who in Germany can sell and deliver to England Milk Thistle Seeds by the kilo without the husk ?

Thank you.
William

Übersetzung Versuch

Hallo, Ich habe gebeten, daß die folgende Frage in einem anderen Forum aber nicht die Informationen einholte, die ich nachher war. Möglicherweise kann jemand auf diesem Forum helfen. Kann jemand für mich herausfinden, der in Deutschland an England Milch-Distel-Samen durch das Kilo ohne die Hülsen verkaufen und liefern kann?
Danke. William

Hello William

William Astor schrieb:

Mariendistel -Samen Lat.: Silybum marianum

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Please click here
First click "Saatgut" then "M-Saatgut" (menue leftside)
at the 2nd page is "Mariendistel "

for delivery-conditions click "AGB"

William Astor schrieb:

without the husk ?

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hmm, no idea

for more information you can contact
**********

Hallo William


You con get it hier:
- Ricos Futterkiste

Or you can look in a pharmacy.

Äh...

Hallo Sonja, hallo Heidi,


William hat schonmal so `ne Frage gestellt, und zwar hier !

Er möchte gern geschälte Mariendistel samen kaufen oder welche, die erst geschält und dann gemahlen wurden!

Ich hab mal `n paar Tage lang gegoogelt und rumgefragt deswegen, aber überall nur "ganze" oder "mit-Schalen-gemahlene" Samen gefunden...
Ich denke eh, daß diese Schalen unbedenklich sind, oder nicht?!
Er allerdings meint, seine Finken wurden davon krank...

@ William:
I showed them your thread from 04-07-2004 about the same question...

And I told them, that I tried to find an answer for you, but it seems, there are only seeds or powders with the husk!
Sorry! :(
So I think, it`s okay for your finches!


Bye

Ursula

Hallo

Als vor 2 Jahren bei Charly hohe Leberwerte festgestellt wurden habe ich Mariendistel in der Apotheke gekauft.
Nachdem sie mit Mißachtung bestraft wurden habe ich sie gemalen und dann so über das Futter (vor allem nasse Sachen wie Keimfutter gestreut). Ob diese Mariendistel samen geschält waren .

Hallo

Ich habe Patrick auf diese Problematik aufmerksam gemacht. Er hat bei Produzenten nachgefragt, leider ist geschälte Mariendistel samen nicht erhältlich.

Thank you Owl, Federmaus and Ursula for your help.
I emailed Ruehlemanns but they told me that they do not have hulled (geschälte) milk thistle seeds.
I emailed Ricos but got no answer.

Can any of you tell me what Federmaus meant by :
<< Ob diese Mariendistel samen geschält waren. >>>

Federmaus, for liver problems I give crushed not ground milk thistle seeds on their own and Aloe Vera juice cranberry flavour on its own. This way each individual bird can consume as much as it needs and no more.

I have tried to germinate Milk Thistle seed but it does not germinate like sunflower seed does after you soak it in water.
Has any of you tried germinating milk thistle seed ?

William
http://astorwilliam.tripod.com/index.htm

Hello William

William Astor schrieb:

Can any of you tell me what Federmaus meant by :
<< Ob diese Mariendistel samen geschält waren. >>>

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What I tried to explain is that I don't know whether the seeds that I bought at the pharmacy had been peeled or not. As I understand from your former thread the inside of the seed is white powder, therefore I guess that I have bought whole seeds.
Was ich versucht habe zu erklären ist, dass ich nicht weiss, ob die Samen, die ich in der Apotheke gekauft habe, geschält oder ungeschält waren. Aus Deinem vorhergehenden Thread entnehme ich, dass das Innere der Samen ein weißes Puder enthält, daher vermute ich, dass es sich um ungeschälte Samen gehandelt hat.

A tip to germinate the seeds is to put them on absorbent paper that is used in the kitchen. This is the way how you germinate cress as it contains too much fibril to be germinated in the usual way. Maybe this proceeding is useful for German Milk Thistle as well. Unfortunately I can't try it on my own as I don't have any seeds right now.
Ein Tipp zum Keimen der Samen ist die Verwendung von saugfähigem Papier wie es in der Küche verwendet wird. Auf diese Art wird auch Kresse gekeimt, die aufgrund ihres hohen Schleimstoffanteils auf normale Art nicht zum Keimen gebracht werden kann. Möglicherweise ist dieses Verfahren auch für Mariendistel n geeignet. Leider kann ich es nicht selbst ausprobieren, da ich derzeit keine Samen habe.

What I found in other forums (deeling with human diseases) is that they recommend the usage of pills or capsules that you can buy at the pharmacy as they contain the agent Silymarin in a highly concentrated form. My vet recommended such capsules to me for my Charlie as well.
In anderen Foren (die sich mit menschlichen Krankheiten befassen) habe ich gelesen, dass die Verwendung von Tabletten oder Kapseln empfohlen wird, die man in der Apotheke kaufen kann, da diese Kapseln den Wirkstoff Silymarin in hochkonzentrierter Form enthalten. Mein Tierarzt hat solche Kapseln auch für meinen Charlie empfohlen.

Hello Federmaus,

I am so glad you are can write English so well. Forgive me but I never studied German at school. I am very grateful for your detailed answer.

Federmaus schrieb:

What I found in other forums (dealing with human diseases) is that they recommend the usage of pills or capsules that you can buy at the pharmacy as they contain the agent Silymarin in a highly concentrated form. My vet recommended such capsules to me for my Charlie as well.

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Buying pills and capsules in my experience is throwing your money away since buying the Milk thistle seeds by the kilo is far far cheaper. Not only that but you know that you are buying the real thing. Who knows what is contained in those tablets ? You only have someone else’s word for it. Remember the herb industry is not a tightly regulated industry as the pharmaceutical one is.

Does your Charlie which I assume is a cockatiel crack open the Milk thistle seeds ? I was surprised to read that you had to grind the seeds up and put the powder on his food.

Federmaus schrieb:

A tip to germinate the seeds is to put them on absorbent paper that is used in the kitchen. This is the way how you germinate cress as it contains too much fibre for it to be germinated in the usual way.

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I will try this method and will report on what happens. Meanwhile can you ask around on how to germinate these seeds as I have tried various ways to germinate them without success ? I also tried putting the seeds in the fridge for 3 weeks in order to micmic the winter cold but still they would not germinate. Since Milk Thistle is grown in Germany there must be farmers who will know how to germinate it.

William

Hello William

Does your Charlie which I assume is a cockatiel crack open the Milk thistle seeds ? I was surprised to read that you had to grind the seeds up and put the powder on his food.

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Yes, Charlie is a cockatiel. Charlie wouldn't eat the milk thistle seeds. Therefore I grinded them roughly and spread them over the food.
Ja, Charlie ist ein Nymphensittich. Charlie wollte die Mariendistel samen nicht futtern darum habe ich sie grob gemahlen und über das Futter gestreut.

Buying pills and capsules in my experience is throwing your money away since buying the Milk thistle seeds by the kilo is far far cheaper. Not only that but you know that you are buying the real thing. Who knows what is contained in those tablets ? You only have someone else’s word for it. Remember the herb industry is not a tightly regulated industry as the pharmaceutical one is.

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Of course the capsules are much more expensive then the seeds themself but I would go to any lenghts for my birds to get well.
Ist schon klar das die Kapseln wesentlich teuerer sind als die Samen selber. Aber was tut frau nicht alles damit es dem Vogel wieder gut geht.
Ich verwendete durasiyimarin 70 Kapseln, das ist aus der Pharmaindustrie.

I will try this method and will report on what happens. Meanwhile can you ask around on how to germinate these seeds as I have tried various ways to germinate them without success ? I also tried putting the seeds in the fridge for 3 weeks in order to micmic the winter cold but still they would not germinate. Since Milk Thistle is grown in Germany there must be farmers who will know how to germinate it.

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I don't believe that putting in the fridge will be successful as most seeds are sowed when winter is over.
How have you tried to germinate the seeds? Have you used a sieve or a germination apparatus?
Ich glaube nicht dass das in den Kühlschrank legen etwas bring. Denn die meisten Samen werden ja erst nach dem Winter gesät.
Wie hast Du das Keimfutter probiert zuzubereiten. Mit der Siebmethode oder einen Keimautomaten ? http://www.federmaus.de/Ernahrung/Keim-_und_Quellfutter/keim-_und_quellfutter.htm

Federmaus schrieb:

Yes, Charlie is a cockatiel. Charlie wouldn't eat the milk thistle seeds. Therefore I grinded them roughly and spread them over the food.

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Do you remember whether Charlie ate the seed ?
Do you remember whether he avoided eating the husk ?
My finches seem to prefer eating the white seed and avoiding the husks when I give them milk thistle seeds that have been kibbled [ ground into little bits and not into a powder ].

Federmaus schrieb:

I don't believe that putting in the fridge will be successful as most seeds are sowed when winter is over.

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Yes I now think you are quite right. As far as I know, Milk Thistle is a Mediterranean plant and it grows from Autumn when the rains fall and flowers in April - June. The seeds drop to the ground in July when the summer drought sets in. So you are quite right, I should really be putting them in an oven at a low mark for 30 minutes to micmic the hot Mediterranean summer and then soaking them in water to micmic the Autumn rains. I think this is the best way to germinate them.

Federmaus schrieb:

How have you tried to germinate the seeds ?

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Through the sieve method.

Can you try and use phrases as for example, “Milk thistle is grown” in German in the Google search engine and see whether any information comes up that shows when and how this seed is cultivated in Germany. I will try to do this myself but I will find very difficult to translate all the pages that may come up.
Thank you for your help.

William

Report on Germination Rate of Milk Thistle Seeds

Hello Federmaus,

I told you some time ago that I will try to germinate the Milk Thistle Seeds again. I had unexpected success this time. Last year not one seed germinated...!!! However, the seeds that I used this year I bought from a different bird seed company called Versele Laga. Nevertheless, I found that the germination rate was only 26% which is far too low. Healthy seed should have a germination rate of at least 80%.

I will now explain in detail how I germinated the milk thistle seeds.

I first soaked 2 tablespoons of seeds [ I counted 300 seeds in all ] for about 12 hours.
I then cut a piece of flannelette cotton cloth and placed it on a porcelain plate. I placed the seeds on top and wet the cloth. I then covered it with a plate for darkness but left a gap for the seeds to breathe and germinate.
I rinsed the seeds in a sieve in the morning and in the evening and placed the seeds back on the wet cloth which I also rinsed.
After only 2 days, about 10 seeds sprouted. SURPRISE.
After 10 days, I counted the following sprouts of different lengths.

28 sprouts 0- 2 cms long
37 sprouts 3 cms long
25 sprouts 4 cms long
17 sprouts 5 cms long

Total number of sprouts after 10 days: 107
But I counted 298 seeds that had not sprouted...!!!

I decided to continue watering these unsprouted seeds for the next 10 days. But only a further 2 seeds sprouted after these extra 10 days.

After thinking hard as to why I did not succeed in germinating these seeds in the past, I have come to the conclusion that the most likely reason is because the seed that I had bought in the past was LOW QUALITY SEED. The Milk thistle seed which I used this year was of slightly better quality.

In the past, I experienced two occasions where none of the seeds germinated.
One type of seed where none of the seeds germinated was Japanese millet. Another type of seed was Niger seed.

The problem now is to find Milk Thistle seeds that have 80% germination rate.

I would also like to describe a good way I found of how to extract the Milk Thistle seeds from the prickly buds. I used this method with Teazle buds ( Dipsacus sylvestris ) that I collected.

Get three supermarket plastic bags and place them one in another so that you end up with only one bag with 3 layers. Put the prickly buds in there using thick leather gloves. Use office metal clips to shut the bag. Place the bag on a flat surface. Then using a flat piece of thick wood, beat the bag. Most of the seed should come out of the buds.

William

Hello Wiiliam

in the meantime I have tried to germinate the milk thistle seeds myself - without much success. A maximum of 50% of the seeds sprouted and the smell of the seeds was horrible, so I threw them away after a few days.
I will give it another try when the outside temperatures have fallen as warmth boosts moldering. Besides that I assume that watering the seeds two times a day was too much. Next time I will only water them once. All the germination apparats that I know are made from see-through glas or plastics so that I'm not sure whether it is the best idea to keep the seeds in the dark.

I found a farmer on Germany who is an expert in growing millet. He even build a nature trail for old millet forms. He told me that he sows milk thistle seeds in the beginning of May when the morning frost is over. Maybe in GB you can even do it earlier. Important is that the seeds have to be put into the soil and not dispersed on the surface. As the milk thistle flower can reach a diameter of up to one meter you should keep a fair distance between the seeds. When milk thistle flowers grow they love to have plenty of water. Two years ago when we had a very wet summer the milk thistle flowers grew much bigger than last year when Germany suffocated in heat.

Hi!

I recently learned the follwing trick on a gardening website and it works like a charm.

Simply place the seeds with a fistful of Kokohum (which is a substrate based on coconut fibres) into a ziplock. Then place the lot on a heated surface near a light. Ideal would be a window sill with the radiator underneath. My gardener explained to me that many (if not most seeds) like "warm feet".

Using this method I have gotten even difficult seeds to sprout in less than half the time that was stated in the instruction. Haven't tried it with Milk thistle, yet, though.

BTW, I buy Milkthistle seeds at the pharmacy. They even order 1kg bags. They are no more expensive than those ordered on the internet and they are of "pharmaceutical" quality, ie very fresh. So sprouting them should be successful.

Ann.

Thank you Federmaus for your comments.
Can you tell me what you mean by old millet forms ?
Does your farmer sell the unripe seed heads of old millet forms to finch breeders so that they will freeze the seed heads to feed their birds throughout the year ?

William

Thank you Ann for your comments.
Next time you germinate Milk Thistle seeds from the pharmacy can you estimate the germination rate and post the information here please ?
As far as I know pharmacies in Britain do not sell medicinal herbs or seeds. Health food shops only sell tinctures but these are very expensive and contain alcohol which is toxic to birds.

Did your African Grey parrots eat the Milk Thistle seeds on their own ?
Did you find that you had to mix these seeds with their normal seeds before they would try to eat them ?
Or did you find that you had to pulverize the seeds including the husk in a blender and put the powder on fruit ?
Did the birds like the Milk Thistle seeds a lot or a little ?
How often do you feed these seeds to your parrots ?
My finches of several different African species love eating milk thistle seeds that I crush but not pulverize in a blender. I eat the white seed myself.....
I leave these crushed seeds in a separate container all the time so that the birds can eat as much as they like.

William

>Did your African Grey parrots eat the Milk Thistle seeds on their own ?

All of my parrots (except the two latest additions - been here since last Sunday - which do not eat "anything" yet) love Milkthistle seeds and devour them. The species are: LBs, CAGs, GWs and Citron Toos.

I also use them as treats during training.

For feeding purposes, I simply put them in a seperate bowl or in a hide-a-treat. BTW: they do not get a seed mix. Simply veggies/fruit in the mronings and nuts in the evenings (with the nuts they get sunflower and pumpkin seeds).

Did the birds like the Milk Thistle seeds a lot or a little ?

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Let's put it this way...I have to hide the container in the fridge....

How often do you feed these seeds to your parrots ?

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Almost daily. Guess why I am buying the stuff by the Kilo....

Take care,

Ann.

Excellent.
This means that half the battle for birds with healthy livers is won for both parrots and finches since they all seem to like Milk Thistle seeds. I say half the battle because I have read that seed is nutritionally worthless if it does not germinate. I am not sure however that Milk Thistle seed that does not germinate, will not contain its medicinal ingredients that protect the liver. Perhaps it does. Next time you go to the pharmacy, can you ask this question over there please ?

Ann Castro schrieb:

All of my parrots (except the two latest additions - been here since last Sunday - which do not eat "anything" yet) love Milkthistle seeds and devour them. The species are: LBs, CAGs, GWs and Citron Toos. I also use them as treats during training.

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I do not keep parrots. Can you explain the abbreviations please ?

Have you taught your parrots any German yet ?
If you have succeeded tell me so that I will enrol on your training sessions....online if you have a webcam : )


William

because I have read that seed is nutritionally worthless

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Ahhhhh....there is a lot of hype regarding germinated seeds. I attended a lecture with Prof Wolf from the University of Hanover last year in which it was clearly stated that germinating does not increase the nutritional content, but does massively increase the risk of microbiological contamination. They clearly advise against feeding germinated seeds.

I am not sure however that Milk Thistle seed that does not germinate, will not contain its medicinal ingredients that protect the liver.

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It is the seed that contains the active ingredient (which is why it is sold in phramacies)

Can you explain the abbreviations please ?

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Sure:

LB = Loverbird
CAG = Congo African Grey
GW = Greenwing Macaw
Too = Cockatoo (in my case Citron crested Cockatoos)

Have you taught your parrots any German yet ?

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Yes, but they mostly speak English <grin>

If you have succeeded tell me so that I will enrol on your training sessions....online if you have a webcam : )

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There is a Clicker-Training Forum here which I moderate and where I help people train their birds. However, I actually do not do speech training, as it doesn't interest me. What they learn regarding speech they learn by themselves.

From observation, thoguh, "jealousy" (don't want to anthropomorphise, but this is the closest explanation) seems to work best. Typically a bird will pick up phrases that I say to their mates. This is also confirmed by the speech training experimetns by Dr. Pepperberg.

Ann.

Ann Castro schrieb:

Ahhhhh....there is a lot of hype regarding germinated seeds. I attended a lecture with Prof Wolf from the University of Hanover last year in which it was clearly stated that germinating does not increase the nutritional content, but does massively increase the risk of microbiological contamination. They clearly advise against feeding germinated seeds.

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It is true what you say. But the glucose that is produced from germinating seed is so liked by finches that have young to feed that I supply it all the same.
To counter the parasitic protozoans, I am now using cooled boiled tap water.
To counter the bacteria and fungi, I add 1 ml bleach to every 99 mls of water.
The supreme advantage of sprouts are that they are biochemically so easy to digest by the hatchlings.

Ann Castro schrieb:

It is the seed that contains the active ingredient (which is why it is sold in pharmacies)

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What I meant was :
Will sterile Milk Thistle seed still be medicinally active if eaten ?

Ann Castro schrieb:

There is a Clicker-Training Forum here which I moderate and where I help people train their birds. However, I actually do not do speech training, as it doesn't interest me.

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So may I ask what you train them to do ?
Regarding speech training, I have seen Dr. Pepperberg holding an intelligent conversation with Alex her African Grey parrot on television. This is the most incredible animal-related phenomenon that I have ever seen because it is all very well that chimpanzees and African Greys have been found to have the IQ (Intelligence Quotient ) of a five year old human being. But to actually see an animal hold an intelligent conversation with a human being is something totally different. And Dr. Pepperberg says that she can prove that Alex KNOWS the meaning of the words that he uses. And if I remember well, Alex knows the meaning of hundreds of words. Correct me if I am wrong here.

William